Verbal Abuse & Physical Threats: Managing Aggressive Members

Discussion with Legal Expert Jennifer Cunha, Esq. and Board-Certified Psychiatrist Dr. Ivan Cichowicz

Are tempers flaring in your community meetings? Do you have residents or board members who cross the line — yelling, threatening, or using intimidation to get their way?

Verbal abuse can be just as damaging as physical aggression. It erodes trust, divides communities, and creates a hostile environment for everyone involved.

Join us and explore how to recognize verbal aggression, set firm boundaries, and enforce respectful communication under your governing documents.

Learn how to de-escalate heated interactions, protect yourself and fellow board members, and address abusive behavior without escalating the conflict.

Gain the tools to restore civility, safety, and professionalism — and ensure that every voice in your community can be heard without fear.

Here is a link to our handout: https://bit.ly/4nLhYV1

Check out our website: https://jennifercunhalawoffice.com/ 

Transcript

Framing The Problem: Violence In HOAs

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Good afternoon. Welcome everybody. We gave it a couple seconds for Zoom to add everybody. Today we are talking about a hard topic, which is violence. It can be anything from verbal abuse to physical violence, the underlying causes of violence, which is you have to get violence both legally in your association, what your association obligations are, and then also how to keep yourself physically safer. By way of hands, just curious. Has anybody here ever felt unsafe by a member of your association? You have a lot of hands going up.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Okay. There's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah. So over 10% of the people here today have had this. Okay. So what I'm gonna do is um in the chat, I'm dropping in the handout. Um and Dr. Tsiekowitz is joining us today. He is a board-certified psychiatrist and expert in this field. Um so Dr. Tikowitz, tell us about yourself, your background, and then we're gonna dive into a very serious challenge of violence.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Okay. So good afternoon, everyone. I'm Ivan Chikkowitz. I'm a board-certified psychiatrist. I work in Boca, Raton, Florida, have a private practice, and I'm just gonna be helping Jen navigate this whole, I'm gonna say, unfortunate, epidemic of more violence and aggression that we're seeing, and just try to come up with some tips on how to identify people who can become violent and how to try to manage these things so they don't get out of hand.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Okay, and let me ask you, um have you ever, you know, as a psychiatrist, and you see lots of people, obviously in your practice who are mentally ill, have you ever had violence in your office?

Meet The Psychiatrist And Scope Of Risks

SPEAKER_02 2:10

So there's two parts to this. First, it's important to remember that people with mental illness are more likely to be the victims of violence than to be the perpetrators of violence. But as any, I'm gonna say, healthcare provider, we always do run into people who are angry or who are upset for multiple reasons, and we can get into that. So we always have to, I'm gonna use the word, know how to maneuver around people who are upset and try to be able to de-escalate situations because the key is just not letting the situation continue to get worse. It's trying to de-escalate, bring it down, even if you have to swallow your pride a little bit and just kind of do something that you would rather not do to just calm the situation down, so then you can work on progress or you know, on making sure that everyone else is safe and that you're safe.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

That makes sense. So just so you're aware, Dr. Tigowitz, in our community with HOAs and condos and even association managers, um, violence, violence occurs. There was a board president shot in Miami, a board president and his wife were shot, you know, a board president and his her husband were shot in Stuart. Um, here in Palm Beach, there was a um community association manager, and someone walked in and shot him. Um he survived, but he has um I don't think he's able to work again. He was he was forced to retire from the injuries. Um, you know, I read about recently in Kentucky the board president was shot at a meeting. Um, so so I can imagine that in um a setting where there's conflict because there are rules. People need to follow the rules, people owe money to associations. Sometimes board meetings get heated. Um you know, what are the kind of underlying causes of violence?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

So I I think there's a few things that we need to be aware of. And the first thing is a lot of this kind of stems from people feeling that they're not being treated fairly or a feeling of that there is unjustice, even though it may not be true. Okay. So this is the the first challenge that we have whenever we have rules, that there's some people that feel, oh, maybe the rules shouldn't apply to me, or I should be able to navigate the rules in a different way. And this is the part where trying to be as I'm gonna say as straightforward and as transparent as possible does help. So there may be instances in which you bend the rules a little bit, but it's being able to explain why that happened and why that is not happening in this situation, or having all this stuff in the open. So what I see a lot is people who are, oh, my HOA is stealing. And when you ask them, like, why would you say that? It's oh, they don't let me see the books. Or they refuse to answer my questions. So

Root Causes: Stress, Injustice, Entitlement

SPEAKER_02 5:20

I I think these are the things that kind of feed a lot of this mistrust. Then the other part to this is there are some situations where people are just more likely to be violent and act up, and number one is stress. Okay, people who are stressed out financially, emotionally, are at a much higher risk of violence. So you know that if you're getting into a situation with the resident who's behind on his you know payments and he has a fear of maybe losing his condo or his home, he's much more likely to be angry and upset. If if you have a situation where a resident is a substance user or may have like an impulse control disorder, um, may have an underlying kind of like paranoid disorder, there could be like bigger chances of them being upset. And then, of course, you have the personality disorders where you know people who are a little bit narcissistic, you know, can be entitled. Um, I shouldn't have to follow these rules. And I want to remember, like most people who are violent, I don't really have a mental health issue per se. Or I mean it is mental health, but it's not like a mental health diagnosis. It's just that they're stressed out. They're angry, they're frustrated at life, and sometimes just one little thing that goes the wrong way is more than enough to say, I'm done. I think the challenge in Florida is because, you know, it's so easy to carry guns and all these things that it just takes that violence to the next level.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Okay. So so just to recap where we're at, kind of um, when things get violent, there are many different reasons that this could happen. And the different causes could be stress, a feeling of unfairness or injustice, um feeling like you're entitled to differential treatment, um, which could go to maybe a personality disorder or mental health challenge, untreated or under-treated mental health challenges, but but really there's kind of like um conflict. There's like some sort of conflict that brings this, brings this up. And in a minute, we'll maybe um chat more about um how to identify the individuals who are highest risk of conflict. But let's get into the topic of conflict itself. So I'm an association lawyer. This is what we do. We deal in conflict. Um, and we tell we've, I mean, it is, I would say at least once, if not a couple of times a year, we'll have an association board that's worried about somebody. Um, and they don't want to be the heavy. And I I say to our clients, um, we represent clients all over Florida, I say, you know, if you feel weird and uncomfy, send it to us. We'll be the heavy. I mean, somebody would have to strive far to, you know, it's not an impulsive, I have a gun and I'm feeling upset moment. Like, like there's just you don't have to be feeling worried um to enforce the rules. You do have to enforce the rules, but but if you're feeling worried about it, this is where your lawyer can come in. I will also say that this has always worked, you know, not good way. It's just always worked that we were able to manage conflict, de-escalate it as necessary, or get law enforcement or the judge involved as necessary. But we've taken on associations and conflict that other lawyers have said no to. Um, not uncommonly, just because I know that our team is really good at de-escalation, at fairness. Um, and then we also work really fast to get pro appropriate, you know, law enforcement, judicial proceedings moving. Um, so so this is how we we go. But those sources of conflict, um, when you're enforcing the rules, so on your handout, you have um a list here. Um so disagreements about rules, fines, property maintenance, so people not following the rules. Um one of the situations where someone became violent was a man who was angry because his fence that he installed did not meet the association's criteria. Um, and I think this is the Stuart, the Stuart homicide. Um, and he he was angry and he he sh shot the president and her husband. Um if you were to analyze that a little bit more, you know, what what's a risk factor? How do you enforce the rules generally and then also say, oh, this one's making us worried so and of course I'll caveat this with I do not know who this person was or exactly what they did.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

But I look at it, you know, this way. The possibilities that he was chronically mentally ill are small, uh, because he lived in a community, so I'm assuming he was, you know, I guess a functional kind of like you know, person. But what can happen is he could have had been under a lot of distress. And a simple example is, you know, putting up a fence is not like a few hundred dollars. It could be a few thousand dollars depending on you know what your property looks like. And some people can end up then getting very, I'm gonna say, angry or frustrated if they see that they spend money that they maybe did not really have or that was a stretch for them, and then now they're looking at having

Conflict In Practice: Rules, Fines, Projects

SPEAKER_02 11:00

to spend more money. And I think financials are one of the ones that cause the most distress. So in an example like this, I mean it's really hard to anticipate, but the easiest things is trying to have one vendor that knows what the community rules are so people don't kind of like mess up. Or having things like you need approval before you put up the fence to make sure that if something is incorrect and gets caught before someone spends a lot of money. Um and all these things can be a little bit hard, but we have to remember as human beings, when you have one thing go wrong and another thing go wrong and another thing go wrong, eventually it just it's one thing too many, and people kind of snap. And that's when people tend to be impulsive. It's not so much someone who's depressed or someone who has bipolar disorder, it's someone who snap because there's too much pressure on them. So maybe he was having trouble at home, maybe he was trapping Hubble with some of the kids, having trouble at work, and messing up the fence was just kind of the last straw.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Okay, that makes sense. And it's interesting because we a lot of our associations do have what's called architectural rules in an art committee. And um, not necessarily this guy, but it's exactly that idea that people need to get approval before they start on projects. Um, and and I can imagine that that process, even though it can make people frustrated, like why do I have to only choose from 20 pink colors or whatever, um, also diffuses future challenges, exactly like you said, because I've had people who put on wrong color roof, I've had people who put in, and it's not an insubstantial amount of money to fix, they don't know how they're gonna fix this. And they just turn a little bit wild.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Okay, so so so that's one thing, and maybe another thing we can take away from that as an association community is conversation and um a little bit of like, I know you can't do it today. Let's get a game plan together that within the next year the fence is gonna be remediated. It doesn't have to be right now. But, you know, maybe let's talk about a timeline that works for you. Um and that potentially can diffuse because on our side, we have to enforce the rules or else we lose the right to. But maybe incorporating a little bit more um flexibility into a timeline can can lower that. Okay, so we have other things here um people can see um as common sources of the conflict. And also, guys, if you have any questions at all, feel free to ask them at the QA. Um, financial or but budget disputes, miscommunication or mistrust among residents and board members.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

So this one that I can see that's really related to mental health is the financial disputes with the board. Because I think people who have underlying paranoid disorders can always feel, oh, they're they're hiding money. Like I pay $100 a month and everyone pays $100 a month. This place should be, you know, it should look like a palace, um, because they don't understand how expensive a lot of the things that communities do um are. And it could lead to this how do I know that, you know, the person who is involved in doing the landscaping is not the brother of someone in the association. So I I think this is where you get a little bit of kind of like really mental health there in the mix um with that paranoid personality. And this is where I I just think like again, transparency is like the best thing for this. Um, almost like the government, you know, you can tell people, look, we're gonna have two, three vendors, you get to vote which one, or this is why we chose this one, and having some type of maybe yearly opportunity for people to ask questions about the finances, because the problem is one person's paranoia can become everyone's paranoia unless you know we kind of nip that in the behind pretty quickly. So if someone tells a neighbor, you know, this kind of seems odd, that neighbor, even though he says, ah, that's that's not true, may start to think about it. And next thing you know, he mentions it to another neighbor, and it's like almost like a group hysteria. And the best way to avoid that is by being able to nip it in the behind by saying, Look, this is the information you can you can look. This is when we talk about it, and we're more than happy to answer any questions.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

That makes sense. Okay. So in associations, we do have almost like like it's almost like you're a fly on the wall to some of the things that have happened. Um, we'll have one person who is a little off, I'll say, and they come and they're recording things on, you know, putting it on YouTube and the Facebook groups, they're recording the meetings, they're saying things that aren't true, they're telling people, you know, the board is lying, the board is stealing stuff. And then you have what you just described is mass hysteria. You have this subset of the association members who believe this person, and now they're all kind of out to get the board because they all believe the board is misbehaving. And you know, as a lawyer, they just the boards generally are. Um, so you're you're trying to manage a lot of big bad behavior from maybe five percent of the association population, but it becomes very unruly with with YouTube video recordings and Facebook. All this. Okay, so there's a couple thoughts I have. One is that technically speaking, um, if you know, when you come to our board certifications and other classes and stuff, I talked about the fact that the only um meetings that need to be like noticed are the board meetings or board, I mean there are various ones, but one of them is like board meetings. But if the board isn't voting on something, sometimes you'll see, you know, like the board just goes out to look at the white flies in a bush, right? They're trying to deal with the white fly infestation. Very technically, can a quorum of the board go look at the white fly infestation and not

Financial Strain And Architectural Disputes

SPEAKER_00 17:20

have a board meeting? The answer is yes. But I always say that I don't think a quorum of the board should meet unless it's an open meeting, because you get this distrust issue. People will start thinking, oh, they're having board meetings without having open board meetings, they're meeting and discussing things. And I think that you can lower that quite a bit by just literally sending two board members to look at it and take pictures or two at a time, instead of having the whole board go look and then everyone's like, what are they talking about under the tree? Um so it it feeds the idea that when we meet in a quorum or large, or even if you don't technically have to have a notice meeting, you could be feeding the paranoia.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

And and we Why do you say to like fix it?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

So we, I mean, um what you were saying, we have to remember that as human beings, we tend to always assign doubt when we're seeing someone that's happening and we're on the outside. So it's very common for people to see, you know, if you're in a place and there's you know, a few people laughing, for you to feel like, oh, why am I not laughing? Why am I not in on what's going on, you know, what's happening? In a community, this is just you know super escalated because you feel this is my my group, this is my network, this is my home. Um, things are happening without me being aware. So that just kind of sets the waters um in a way that can make it very easy for people to go into any type of you know paranoid thought process. So as board members or community leaders, we do need to be aware that this is natural human behavior. And the best ways to avoid this is by doing things like what you said, which is just we we don't let the behavior kind of get out of control in the first place. Because it is much harder to rein it in than to nip it in the behind before it even starts.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

So somebody we have this week, somebody who um did eight hours of like official records requests. I mean, it was eight hours initially, and now they still have three hours more. They've asked for another set, and the board hadn't set up rules yet, so they can't say no. Um, they have to, they have to like comply with this large you know, official records request. Um sometimes you'll get somebody, now that you say it's like personality and paranoia, you'll get somebody who just makes these huge records requests that can be, you know, honestly, days of work. Associations don't have to do this if they've set boundaries ahead of time and rules, but not all the associations have done this. Um and you know, it can be hundreds of documents, it's just it's very arduous. Um Do you think that in those cases the associations should just give like as much information, all the information, try to like simmer it down, or do they just keep asking for more and more and more and more and more and more? Like you're feeding the hungry bear?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Well, I think there's two sides to this. Number one is everyone has to follow whatever rules the association has said. So if the association says we will give it to you, I think they should. If they say we won't, I think they need to stand by what the rules are. But I think the way to de-escalate this is by say, hey, I got your request. It kind of sounds to me like you have some worries. Why don't we set some time for maybe in a group panel or in a group situation for you to express what some of those worries are and see if we can address them. Um, but we're happy to get you like whatever the rules say that you're able to get.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

That makes sense. So so if it's a little bit more conflict management on the front end, like, hey, let's have a conversation, you know, um, let's chat about what it is, that can that can get it.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yeah, and and the thing is, as human beings, you never want to start by saying, look, you know, what the heck? Why are you asking for eight hours of of paperwork? Because that puts the other person on the defensive. So we want to start by, hey, you ask for eight hours of paperwork. Um, that's a lot. So it I kind of interpret that as you're worried about something. And I just want to make sure that we can have a conversation about what you're worried about. Um, if there's any concerns, I'd like to know to make sure that we can address them. And that kind of like usually simmers people down a little bit because now they feel they're part of what's going on, as opposed to they're looking at it from outside. And I'm gonna use the word, you know, they're the odd men out here in the interaction.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

I have to say that I feel like this is that that information is a million bucks because that can just offset so much trauma, legal costs, hurt feelings, mass hysteria on the front end. If we're able to that's really where it starts. People start like asking for official records requests and they go on and on and on, and then you have a lawsuit, and you know, we've never had one of them win. We always win, but they're $150,000 in illegal fees by the time.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah, and and the problem is the more confrontational it becomes, the more the person who's on the outside feels kind of vindicated or paranoid. He's like, oh, you know, they're angry because they know I'm right, or they're being defensive because they know I'm onto something. And the best way to kind of nip that is by saying, you know, let's talk about it. You know, we can go over stuff and you can say, look, that's a lot of money for the association. Is there any way that we can answer your questions without having to have the association,

Paranoia, Mistrust, And Transparency

SPEAKER_02 23:05

you know, incur that expense? Because all the neighbors have to pay for that. And and just work on seeing where you can find some common ground.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Okay. So I have one more question along those lines, and we're gonna grab some of these questions. We're gonna move forward a little bit um in the handout. And anybody who's following along in the handout, and we put it again in the chat, um can see all the information on these. Um, but the I have an interesting like variation on a theme. We've had a couple of situations, super random, where somebody did a huge records request, um, you know, hundreds of pages in both situations. In both situations, you know, like we satisfied it. They were, you know, unwilling to really um have resolution. One would say, you know, we'd say, like, do you want to look at them at the basketball court because they don't have a community center? And he was like, No, I'm not looking at them there. And like, do you want to go to the library? And he's like, No, I'm not looking at them there, you know. And then we figure out where he wants to look at them. He looks at everything, he's like, You're missing things. And we're like, what are we missing? We think we have everything. You know, this is the board thing. We think we have everything, what are we missing? He's like, I'm not telling you. Um, and then he went on to sue the association for not providing all the paperwork. Um the association won him ahead of time, like, hey, the association's gonna win this, it's gonna be very expensive. You know, are you sure? Association won, he has a lot of legal fees for reimbursement. And then this happened a couple situations, they died afterwards. Um, and I don't know if it's like they had early dementia or something, they didn't die like somebody killed them, like they had you know, just natural causes. They were older. Um, and we've had this pattern a couple of times where, you know, within a year, year and a half, like they've actually passed away. Is there anything that you can think of?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Because this seems to be something so I mean there's a few things there. Number one, stress is just bad for your health. Okay. You know, bad for your brain, bad for your heart, and bad for everything in between. So people who are more stressed out because they're worried my association is doing something nefarious, or my neighbor is doing something nefarious, they just have increased stress. Now, people who have mild cognitive impairment could have or are more likely to misinterpret things than people who have normal memory functioning. People who have like dementia usually are just not capable of mounting like any type of uh These guys were in their upper 70s and early 80s. Yeah. Yeah, they might have had you know some mild memory issues, or their memory was okay, but maybe they had, again, underlying resentment, underlying anger. And again, I go back to like human behavior. As human beings, if we're angry and frustrated, we have two options. We acknowledge it's me, and we don't like to acknowledge it's me. It's a whole lot easier to say it's them. So this is why, you know, throughout history, it's always like one group of people who get kind of like marginalized and blamed for everything. Because this is human behavior. You can either acknowledge, I I am doing something that's you know wrong or not working, but that's hard. The easy thing is to say it's someone else's fault.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

And the board kind of is easy to be the victim because the board is this powerful thing that has control over the rules of the community, and you're like, you know, this is not fair. I should have control. And that kind of starts the whole process of, oh, so they have control, and now they're trying to get more control and they're trying to manipulate me. And what do you mean the you know, HOA fee is going up by whatever amount? This is because they are, you know, trying to steal or they're trying to do anything nefarious. And and this just kind of builds the whole situation.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Okay. That makes sense. So yeah, I I do think this idea of like mild cognitive decline could be common potentially among the insect conversations.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

And the challenge with the mild cognitive decline is it's harder to reason with someone who has mild cognitive decline because you could say, hey, let's sit down, let's talk about it, but because of that mild cognitive decline, they just may not be able to get it.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

So they leave the meeting feeling like, I don't have any idea what's going on. And that kind of is I'm gonna use the word gasoline for more paranoid thinking.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Okay. Let's come back around to that in a moment. Um, when we talk about like some solutions for de-escalation, because because that I think is very common in our associations. Um, but our questions are we have lots of really good questions, including even guidance on open carry weapon laws. But um the very first one is Gary says, How do you use an association unit owner handle a board member that's verbally pushy, better than, smarter than, you know, towards others on a regular basis? So they're just kind of like aggressive, pushy.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Um so I think this can be a challenge for the rest of the board.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

On a regular basis.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Because but I think the rest of the board needs to maybe sit down with this board member and kind of say, look, a lot of people feel that your style of interacting is, you know, either uncomfortable or just unhealthy. And we need to work on that uh because we don't want to create chaos between the residents and the board. Um, yeah, it's not always the residents the ones who need to kind of calm down. It could be a board member who's just prone to get angry. And if you're gonna be on a board, you just have to understand there's gonna be conflict.

unknown 29:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Because no one likes to be told, like you said, you can't paint your house yellow. And you're gonna need to be able to listen to someone who's frustrated, not get upset and say, I get it, but these are the rules, and you know, we need to kind of stay, follow the rules.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

That makes sense. So if it's a board member, the rest of the board, and if necessary, the lawyer can come together and be like, hey, um, yeah, let's let's adjust this a little bit. It's not working for the mappers. Um, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

I just gonna add, and the important thing is to not make it as oh, like you know, you're the bad person on the board. It's to say, look, um, there's been some issues, and we want to try to figure out how we can make it so you're not constantly. Stressed out, and some of the people who you're interacting with are not stressed out. Because that person is at more risk of violence than someone on the board who's really kind and compassionate. Because the people will say, Oh, that

Records Requests And De‑Escalation Tactics

SPEAKER_02 30:15

person will listen to me. This guy or this girl just gets angry, and that just kind of blows up the other person.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Okay. Um, so on both sides, whether it's on the board member or the owner side, um, he's just having a conversation about let's figure out a way to make this work really well is a is a good starting point. Um John says, How can you tell? How can the feelings that someone's overwhelmed or, you know, paranoid um be detected before it gets out of hand?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Okay. So there's a few behavioral signs that you can use to figure out when someone has out use the word just kind of escalating or kind of like about to lose control. So number one is they start to raise their voice. People who are calm do not tend to have to shout. So raising your voice, someone who starts to like clench their feet, their sorry, their fist, um, or start to get too close to someone else, like and invade their private space, these are the things that we have to worry about. And then of course, someone who is just pacing a lot, this is another sign of someone who's about to kind of like lose control.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Okay. So pacing. Okay. Um and then what are some signs of maybe paranoia?

SPEAKER_02 31:44

So the the problem is the signs of paranoia are people who are going to be saying the board is, you know, doing this or doing that, that you know the board is not doing. But the challenge with that is it's hard to know what's paranoia versus what is just someone who's not paranoid, but it's just misinterpreting what's going on because they don't have enough information. So I'll give you an example. If I get a letter saying the HOA fee is going up, and I don't have information on what the HOA fee is being spent, I could start to think, oh, they're misappropriating funds. Or like you can hear all the time, oh, they they misappropriated funds in the past, so now they're increasing our rents to kind of make up for that. But if I have information, it's harder for that to happen. Now, someone who is just paranoid by nature will get the information and will still say, Oh, you're misappropriating funds. That information that you gave is a lie. This is kind of like the the little bit of a difference here, but that can be harder to pick up.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Okay, that makes sense. So when it comes to paranoia, would you say this is like personality disorder or mental health more?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Paranoid is something that kind of comes along with mental health issues. So people who have schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, even depression can have moments of paranoia. And then people who have personality disorders, particularly borderline personality disorder, um, narcissistic personality disorder, um, can have moments of paranoia also, but they don't tend to be paranoid. I'll use the word kind of about everything. They can have paranoia about particular things. And this is why it can be hard. Like someone with schizophrenia could think that the FBI is listening on their calls, but has no worry about what's going on with the HOA necessarily. They're not, you know, paranoid about everything.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Okay. So let's dive into that because we literally had somebody who had schizophrenia, I would assume, in one of our associations. And Dr. Seekers, what we get sometimes are that people send their family members that cannot live well with the family to a more inexpensive 55 plus unit. Um, I'll say that sometimes on the other side of the world, we've had people send them from Europe to South Florida and say, okay, or or we'll have a trust fund child or something who's who's older, but but they they they can't they don't seem able to function very well on their own, and some trust is paying their bills. Um so we or or something along these lines, or they're here and they have to figure out um the situation. We had a man who literally thought the board um were like Nazis, and he he would say, like you Nazis need to get away from me, and he was reclusive and he didn't really interact with people very much. Um he would get behind on his assessments, and then um, you know, and then and then the board was really worried about doing collections because he'd be like, I have a gun too. Um, so they were very scared about doing collections on him. Um, and his his you know, he seemed to be escalating a little bit. Tell us about this.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

So in a situation like that, it does sound like the person likely had underlying schizophrenia, um, and that they're paranoid. So I would I'm gonna assume that they're either not on treatment or they're not, you know, compliant with their treatment or not doing what they need to do. I'm I mean, I would be very careful about confronting someone like this. I think at this point, if the association feels uncomfortable, you should bring in the authorities, and then the authorities can decide should this person be baker acted. But when you do that, you have to be able to tell the authorities, you know, what is it that's been going on. You just can't say, oh, go to house, you know, 211, uh, because they have no context. You have to say, look, you know, we have to collect, we're uncomfortable collecting, we feel that we're at risk, and trying to get law enforcement involved so law enforcement can help participate. There's also crisis units here in Palm Beach County. It would be South County mental health, who can send a social worker and who can send people to to the house to make sure that someone is okay. But that person needs to accept that help. If they don't, then they may call the police and see if the person like needs to be baked or active. But I I think caution in something like this is always a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Okay, so so in this situation, um the board can call the South County hospital for a mental health intervention, potentially if somebody seems like they're um having a hard time. Anyone can call? That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

You can call them, or you can call, I'm gonna say, you know, your local, you know, sheriff's department or police department and also ask for assistance.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Okay. Um, that makes sense. Uh let's see. So Theo

Cognitive Decline And Communication Aids

SPEAKER_00 37:20

asks, hi Theo. Was your guidance concerning open carry rules while on association property? Would rules reduce aggression? So recently in Florida, um you know, obviously we have open carry now, and the board is allowed to create rules and regulations regarding um regarding common elements. This is the clubhouse, this is the meetings, this is the pool area, any of these places, the board absolutely can create rules and regulations about this. Some of our associations have reached out to us um recently to help with guidance about creating some of these rules so that, for example, the board you know doesn't have to worry that people have weapons in in meetings. What's your thought about reducing aggression and violence through um just people aren't allowed to have their weapons in a board meeting? Or did that even stop anybody?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

No, I I think regardless of anyone's like political beliefs, when we're entering a space where there can be a little bit of conflict, we don't want weapons to be in that space. It just makes it much more likely that you know something goes wrong. And you know, you can always remember those old Western movies when you walk into the town and the sheriff says, Oh, you have to hand us the guns. Um, you get them when you leave. So we want to do something like that because there will be conflict at a board meeting. You know, this is the idea. You go there to solve all the conflicts and to figure out how to move forward. So I I would advise that there's no weapons at those places. Now, you can't control weapons everywhere, and you can't control someone showing up with a gun anywhere. But if you set the stage for these are our rules, and if someone says why, you can just say, look, because we come here to have a healthy argument. And a gun kind of like interferes with the ability for someone to have a healthy argument.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

I think that's really nice.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

I think maybe I'm just gonna add, and if there is worry about safety, I think at that point, bringing in like a police officer or a security officer would make more sense because if either the board or someone on one of the residents has a gun, it just it makes it hard to really have a healthy discussion. Now, if it's a police officer or security, that's someone outside of the discussion, and and that still lets the discussion happen.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Okay, that makes sense. Um let's see, two more questions here, and then we'll pop back into our handout. Um, Frank says, How do we address a resident that constantly forgets what the board has decided? And that implies the board is doing things without the residents knowing.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Okay. I mean, so there's two parts to this. One, the person could just be, I'll use what we call kind of malingering, like doing this on purpose, but I'm gonna say a lot more likely is maybe they have some form of a memory problem and they just really can't remember what was discussed. And because they can't remember, they just mix things up. Again, the brain does not like to not know. So when the brain doesn't know, it just invents. So this person may not remember what was agreed on, and she just makes up something, and that is not what really happened, so then that puts her at conflict with the board and with, you know, maybe the other residents.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Um what would you suggest the board do to try to like nip that in the bud, especially if you get the masses serious?

SPEAKER_02 41:01

So I I I think the first thing is, you know, again, in a kind way, you know, have this written down. You know, again, simple language, the more complicated the language is, the harder it is for people to follow. Simple language, you have it written down. And particularly for older patients, oh I mean, I say patients because that's what I'm used to, but for older people, you want something that they can hold in their hands, as opposed to sometimes an email where they may struggle to find the email or to figure it out, particularly if they may have an underlying cognitive disorder. So if there's a resident that you're worried about this, I mean, having the conversation may not move the ball forward, but giving them a paper with the information, highlighting it, and then whenever they come up saying, You remember that paper I gave you? And they may say, Oh, I lost it. And that you're like, that's okay. Here's another copy of the paper, and here's highlighted what we had talked about. And then it's like, oh, okay, I it's in the paper. But you just have to be aware there, you know, if there's an underlying cognitive issue, they may lose the paper a few times, but if that paper is available, you can just keep referring to it.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

So maybe when I love that idea, maybe when you know rules are gonna be new, rules are gonna be passed, a lot of times it's nailed out. Um, I wonder whether maybe the association, if they have someone in particular who has some cognitive, you know, remembering challenges, they just have copies of the office. And if somebody comes in and they give you a hard time, hand it out again and say, oh, here you go, we have this.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

And the challenge here is remember, if you have a little bit of a cognitive deficit and you get a bunch of papers, you're like, ah, this is too complicated. I'm not even gonna look. So it needs to be for people who have cognitive deficits, just you know, kind of bullet points, you know, one or two pages, big letters, maybe in bold, that they can. Oh, okay. So these are the rules. That's it. They don't need the details, they're not gonna remember the details. They need kind of the big picture stuff.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Okay, I love this. Okay, perfect. Um, and then the last question we'll take at the moment is

High‑Risk Residents And When To Call Authorities

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Can people with no disorder have instances of irrational paranoia from things like being overtired or distressed?

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah, and the answer is yes, and I'm gonna say this is the number one cause of violence. It's not people who have like depression, um, you know, bipolar disorder. It's people who are stressed out and overwhelmed. And I want everyone to take a look. You know, society is it's stressful. You have to worry about, you know, work, you have to worry about your finances, you have to worry about your kids, maybe your parents on top of that. And then, you know, inflation. So you have a lot of people who, if they're in a retirement community, may have a fixed income. And as things get more expensive, their income may not grow that same way. Or you have people who are having a lot of social issues or interpersonal issues. And this is what leads people to, I'm gonna use the word kind of snap. When you feel you're being pulled in every direction, and and this is what I'm gonna say is really hard, but in an ideal situation, we know who everyone is and we can understand what's going on. So we know, look, Bob is really struggling right now. There's problems at home, or there's problems at his job. Let's make sure that as opposed to sending Bob an angry email, we just show up and we say, Bob, look, you know, this is an issue. We don't want to add to your distress. Let's try to figure out how we can kind of work on this so you don't have to, I'm gonna say, you know, carry an extra burden here. But we do need to, you know, we do need to solve the situation somehow.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Um I feel like you bring it so much clarity to the to the challenges we have. Um, that, you know, I mean, as a lawyer, my job is rule enforcement, rule enforcement. If that's not working, like go to court. Um, and then, you know, on the other hand, just having more papers so people can read and understand, or telling someone, oh, just sit for a minute and we'll meet with you in a minute, and then you forget, as you just guessed in one of the um, you know, the topic on to mention, people keep coming in and bothering people. Just all these gentle, simple ways to make everything run so much more smoothly and timely for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

And I want everyone to remember if you're driving on the highway on your way home and your tire kind of like is flat, it's a pain in the behind. But if you're on your way home, you're like, you know what, okay, it's this is like it's gonna be an hour. I'm gonna take care of it. But if you're on your way to work and you're you know that your boss is gonna get upset if you get there late, and that you know, you're on, you know, kind of like that last straw before you might have to be ridden up, that you know, flat tire is now a whole lot more stressful. And this is a lot of times what happens. It's not so much that getting into an argument is bad. It's when you get into an argument with all these other things that are on top of it, it just feels a whole lot more stressful. And you know, people have a limit, and when they reach that limit, they're at high risk of just kind of snapping and becoming aggressive.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Okay, makes sense. So um let's talk about the flip side on our handout. It's under number three, um, and those affected by violence. So let's say that someone here is dealing with someone who feels physically or verbally abusive in the community, like physical threats or verbally abusive. In a minute, we'll talk about the law. Um what is the normal kind of reaction? You hear have your shock, anxiety, hypervision.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Yeah. So I'm gonna answer this with two things. One, anyone who's on the board or who's involved in any of these discussions should feel comfortable with I'll use what I'll use as kind of verbal de-escalation. So they kind of feel confident when they're walking into a situation. And but number two is look, if someone has been the victim of a lot of like verbal violence or physical violence or any other type of violence, there's nothing wrong with saying, look, this is stressing me out. I need to go get some help. And you can see a therapist, you can see a psychologist, you can see um psychiatrist, you can see like, you know, any religious uh figure in your community that can provide support. But there's nothing wrong with working and processing because we're all human beings and this stuff is hard. You know, trauma is trauma. It doesn't matter if it's in Vietnam or if it's you know your neighbor, if you feel in danger, your brain kind of reacts to that in you know in the same way.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Okay. So if somebody's had some of the stress, some of the the it's okay for them to, I mean, like obviously it's just sometimes you have to give yourself permission to say, I'm not okay right now. But it's really stressful. It's normal for this to have been very stressful, and there are resources that can help um help me feel better.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Um and I just want to clarify, like, yeah, one is not emotionally weak by getting overwhelmed. These are normal human responses. You know, there's a blowout, it gets a little violent, or it gets a lot violent. It is normal to be traumatized and overwhelmed by this stuff, and pretending that we're okay when we're not just adds to our stress and our anxiety. Working on it is what makes it not be a problem anymore.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Okay. Now you since you talk about resources and and you know, somebody who's maybe like working through stress, trying to figure out what they should do. You have in your practice, you have therapists, you have psychologists, you have psychiatrists, who does what when addressing stress and trauma or um replacing.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

So I think a therapist is the person that will talk to you, that will help you work on coping skills, that will help you process what's going on. A therapist, a psychologist does that. Psychiatrists usually, we're gonna be more involved with the medication part of this. So if you say ever since the trauma, I'm still, you know, constantly reliving the emotions or I can't concentrate because I can't stop thinking about it, then medication or different medical interventions could be a whole lot

Weapons Policies And Meeting Safety

SPEAKER_02 50:00

healthier. But it's usually like a team approach. Some people just need a little bit, some people need a little bit more. And some people say, hey, talking works for me. And some people say, like, I have no interest in talking, I want some medicine to help take the symptoms away. And there's no right or wrong answer. It's a matter of there, again, us being honest with ourselves. And we can start with the easiest and then move on to the more complicated if the easiest doesn't work out.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

That makes sense. Um, and then along those lines, it's because um I think that people don't really know that stuff exists. There's interventional treatments like TMS and ketamine. If somebody's dealing with a lot of stress, how does that play into it?

SPEAKER_02 50:40

So ketamine and TMS are usually for, I'm gonna say, when things are really bad, when you're kind of like really struggling, you've tried medicine, medicine hasn't worked. They are very, very powerful interventions. It's just usually not the type of thing that is a step one. But they they are very, very powerful. Um, for stuff like trauma, there's something called Prism, which is more of like a headset that you wear, and you get a chance at like a video game where you help calm yourself down, and the video game responds to your brain waves. So the headset is recording your brain waves, and as you calm yourself down, the video game kind of becomes more pleasant, the video game becomes more chaotic if you're in distress. So these are techniques that you can use to kind of help, I'm gonna use the word manage a lot of these emotions better.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Okay, that makes sense. Now let's talk about what you'd mentioned is that anybody going into conflict should have a good um kind of idea of what de-escalation looks like. Tell us about de-escalation.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

So the first thing I want to remember, we're talking about de-escalation is being okay with not winning the argument. Okay, sometimes it's better to lose the argument and win the war than to win the argument, but kind of like lose everything. So step number one is it's okay if if we don't win. Then step number two is we want to make sure that our body language and our behavior doesn't show contempt for the other person. So saying things like, oh, you know, I know, or here you go again, or you know, you always are the one who is an issue, just do not help the situation. We want to show empathy, and empathy says, Okay, you seem overwhelmed, help me understand what's getting you upset. It seems like you're not in a good place, or it seems like these rules are causing you a lot of distress, help me understand what is going on. We can say things like, I get it, but we can only say that uh if we've shown that we really get it. You can't just say, Oh, I get it, and you were acting like if you weren't even paying attention. So after you say something that's like empathic, like, let's figure out what's going on in a calm and normal voice, then the next step is just open-ended questions. So tell me what's going on. And that has to be followed by what could we do now to try to make this better for you? And once the person answers, then it gets a little bit trickier where you're like, well, maybe I can't do that, but how about uh if I said I can give you like some options here? And maybe you can come up with option A or option B. And one option could be we do nothing today, we just kind of let everyone calm down and we revisit this next week, or the other option could be um we have you meet with the whole board and we see if everyone together can come to uh you know to an agreement. You know, you just again you start with let them vent, what can we do, and then let's talk about reality, like what could we do? And you want to say, oh, that's ridiculous, but you can say, look, I wish I could do that one for you, but I can't. How about if I do A or B for you?

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Okay, so that's amazing. And in the end, after they've been able to kind of vent and they feel heard and they see that you're trying to help them with different options, what do you do if there's still a gulf? And I think I think about you know, when like pools were closed during COVID and people would show up and just scream at the board members and there's nothing the board could do, the pools are closed. How do you handle a gulf?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

So I'm gonna say, number one, we have to remember that if someone is very angry and yelling, it's okay to say, again, in a calm voice, things, look, when you yell, I feel like a little uncomfortable, and it makes it hard for me to be able to have the conversation. I want to help, but it feels uncomfortable on my end. Is it okay if if I give you a, you know, if we just kind of bring the temperature down? Um, you can say things like this, or you can say, just you know, straightforward, look, I'm a little uncomfortable right now, but I want to help you. Can you help me just bring the temperature down so I feel okay and we can move the ball forward? And if at the end people are none of this is good, then I think the best answer is saying it seems like we can't reach a resolution today. So as opposed to both of us getting frustrated or continuing to get into an argument, why don't we don't agree to disagree for now and we'll take this up in a few days. You can, you know, think about your argument, I'll think about mine, and we'll try to see if we can bring in other people so it doesn't become a, I'll use the word kind of like you're good, you know, I'm bad situation. It's

Board Conduct And Spotting Escalation Signs

SPEAKER_02 56:05

like it's a group effort, and usually the more people that are in the conversation, the harder it is for it to get out of hand.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Oh my goodness I love it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This is amazing. I think that one of our Thursdays should be just this de-escalation, how to do de-escalation and practicing a whole bunch together with everyone who's here. Um, okay, so um some people have to leave it one. We're gonna go ahead and keep going until about 1.15-ish. Um, but for anybody who needs to leave it one, one of the questions I have a lot in the chat for the QA is is it possible to access the podcast, share with others? How do we get it later? Things like this. So all of the podcasts that Dr. Tikawitz and I have done in the past year, um, I believe are gonna be emailed to you on Monday. We have a new podcast um platform that plays on Apple and Spotify. And um, and our team has been busy uploading and uploading and getting everything all ready to go. Um, so next week you should be able to access it. Feel free to invite. We have these um the first Thursday of pretty much every month. Um feel free to invite, you know, friends, board members, community, you know, committee members, anything, anybody you think would benefit um from these, you're welcome to to invite and bring. Um and then also you're welcome to share the podcast, it will be on demand and available on um regular streaming platforms. So that is coming up. Um, so diving back into some topics here, um, real fast, let's talk about law. Um, because the association does have a duty to maintain a safe environment. Associations have been sued for homicides and for burglaries and for things that have happened in associations. Um, what is the association responsible for and what are they not responsible for? Generally speaking, if there's repeated harassment or threats, the board has to get involved. If it's between neighbors, you still have an obligation to provide a safe, a safe environment. Um, and this, you know, looks like you guys calling your your lawyer and saying, hey, we have a situation where we've had repeated threats or somebody's making others feel uncomfortable in the community. What do we do? And we're your lawyer is your partner and your team member. Who's the hubby? And sweet here. They adore our boards and love working with our clients. But our team can write a letter that's five pages long and gets people, you know, shocked back into compliance because this is what your lawyer does. They they they write enforcement letters and they threaten lawsuits. And if people don't come into compliance, they make those lawsuits. So they'll call the police, do the injunctions. This is where your lawyer can come in and help you. So if you're not sure what to do, if you're ever feeling anxious, this is where being able to reach out to your lawyer as a team member, um, these are the moments where your lawyer can sign. They can carry you through the hard parts of you're feeling worried about somebody, you feel unsafe, other members in the community feel unsafe, your lawyer can write a heavy letter. Um, we've taken on cases that other association lawyers refuse. We've had clients come in, um, you know, there's there's a unit that has drug dealers, and there are SWAT people coming through and and they don't know what to do. The person who schizophrenic is involved. The board, you know, is comprised of people who are part of Nazis. Um, you know, so so we have a good history of of resolving these um and or winning in court if it has to get to that. But um, I do want you to know that the board has to get involved if there's harassment or threats, so you can be on the hook. Um, you can do trespass, you can get police involved, um, you can issue trespass warnings. We had a woman whose son was violent, and um, she was a tenant, but her son was violent and a drug dealer. Um, and we ended up having him trespass. And if he came on again, you know, she would get in trouble. And she um, but everybody could call the police. Anyone could call the police, and this helps her because she had a hard time telling him no. So trespasses work really well to make it safer. Um, and the other thing is that you're protected by insurance and by fiduciary obligations, and you're acting in good faith. So when you do what you need to do to de-escalate situations, to involve your lawyer, to involve law enforcement, um, you're protected. This is part of your fiduciary obligation. Let's dive a little bit more into um prevention and early um intervention. Dr. Tikawa's we already talked about encouraging open, respectful dialogue among neighbors, offering mediation. Um, tell us a little bit more about why it's important to have clear, transparent, consistent enforcement of rules and how this in itself de-escalates conflict.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

Okay, so this goes back again to understanding a little bit of human behavior. So we evolved to understand that there's basic things that are fair and basic things that are unfair. And the stuff that is unfair really gets us upset. So when we have a set of rules, even though we may not like the rules, if they're enforced the same way for everyone, people can manage that. Now, that doesn't mean that the association can't have some flexibility. It just means it has to be something that's in the open of what happened. Okay. So as a simple example, if someone is behind on their dues and it's because they got fired from their job and their association decides to give them a break or do a payment plan, I I think that's okay. We're human beings. It just you can't then tell the next person who gets fired from their job we we can't help you. Okay. Um you could say we can't help someone who's actively working and who's actively making an income, but uh it's if we bend rules in some cases we have to be willing to bend them for other people in those same situations. Okay. And I mean some associations will give you a ticket if you're driving too fast. And I get it, if you say, look, the limit was 25, you were doing twenty-six, but then you have to be able to do that for other people so it doesn't create that resentment. So this is the importance of you know managing those those rules. Because this is where everything

Boundaries, Empathy, And Option Framing

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

starts. You don't feel, oh, it's unfair, because then that leads to the next step, which is the board has it out against me, or the board only treats people that they like um well. The rest of us have to kind of like um get the short end of the stick. And this is what creates that, you know, I'm gonna say, gasoline for a lot of these I think I'm gonna say, you know, anger outburst or these impulsive or just unhelpful behaviors. It's when you feel you're not part of the in-crowd or that it's kind of like against you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Okay, that makes sense. So um that actually aligns really well with the law, which is that everybody needs to enforce the rules clearly and consistently. Um, I think that from this conversation, you know, something takeaway that we in the community association world could have is having easier access to what those rules are, being able to see them more easily, having extra copies of them available so people can read them and have them in their hands more easily. Um, but generally speaking, you can have articulable hardships, but whatever those articulable hardships have to are have to be applied across the board when you're bending the rules a little bit to repayment plan or giving more time for resolution of like a rule enforcement issue. Um then tell us about what to do if somebody is feeling unsafe. And then we'll get into the questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

So if a resident goes to the board and says that they are feeling unsafe, I I do think that in order to avoid what you just said, which is someone then accusing the association of not providing a safe environment, the association does need to address the situation. And I think step one is not on a one-to-one basis, but maybe two or three people go and speak to the person who is being accused of creating the chaos and try to figure out what is going on. Um, there's possibilities. They could both be at fault, one could be at fault, or the person making the complaint could be the one who's actually at fault. But it's just we're just here to try to figure out what happened. We're not accusing anyone, we just want to kind of gather some information. Now, if the board or the association does not feel safe doing that, then I do feel at that point we should get like law enforcement involved. Because I don't want like anyone in a board walking into a situation where they're like, this is just not a good idea. No, at that point you get law enforcement involved. And I again I think with what you said, like you're protected as long as you're acting out of the best interest of the community.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

Um when you say get law enforcement involved, have you like what rises to the standard where law enforcement will get involved? Because I think sometimes we've had situations where law enforcement is called and like, ah, it's a civil matter, ah, it's not like they don't always seem to want to get involved. So what are your recommendations for communicating with law enforcement? I mean, so I think you communicate with law enforcement on wellness checks.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

I I again I I interact maybe with law enforcement more than the average, I'll use the word doctor, but I think this is another part where just having healthy relationships with law enforcement can be very good. And and again, I get it that police officers or the sheriffs may not want to, you know, take half an hour out of their day or an hour out of their day for a dispute, but I think it's just letting them know look, we're part of the community that you guys are in charge of protecting, we are very worried, we do not want there to be, you know, like chaos. Can you guys help us out? And sometimes when you get a no, as opposed to arguing and saying, I get it, and then trying to talk to, you know, a supervisor. Because a lot of times, you know, when you can explain it to someone, it's that makes sense. It's just a lot of times I'll use the word, you know, it's like when you are trying to return a product and you're talking to the person on the phone, they're less willing sometimes to help than if you say, look, can I just talk to a manager for a moment? And usually manager's like, look, let's just solve the problem. We we we want to keep your business. What can we do? I think it's the same thing with the police department. I mean, yeah, the police officer maybe would rather do other stuff, but if you talk to the supervisor, they're like, look, we want a safe community. We don't want to be going out there at two in the morning and having to deal with the homicide. Uh, I'll get one of the guys to go down there. And sometimes they'll have people who are trained in de-escalating mental health. And that could be a good asset. Not every officer is trained in this, but there's a lot of officers out there who are trained in mental health de-escalation. And if you're worried about could it be mental health, that's a huge asset to have.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Okay, that makes sense. So I think I think that no matter what, just if you feel uncomfy making the call and saying, hey, this is what happened, we're a little bit worried, definitely be linking up with your lawyer. Um, this is this is the the next step.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

And um I'm gonna add one thing, and this is again just taking into account how human beings work. Look, if you're a community, it's not a bad idea to be kind to the police officers or the sheriffs that are in charge of your community. And what I mean by that is look, you know, invite them to any type of activity that you're doing, or every now and then say, you know, can we do something to help the police department? So it doesn't become a always, you know, take and take and take. When relationships are give and take, people are just more likely to say, yeah, we love the people at that community. Of course, we're gonna, you know, go down there and help them out.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Awesome. Um, I'm putting our information in the chat. If anybody needs help, um you know, we're both really happy to um to help. But let's talk about Dr. Tikawait's the kind of help that you guys um provide. So you have a full service uh mental health practice.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

So we do full service mental health from therapy to psychiatry to interventional um treatments for depression. Um, and we're always willing to help anyone. Just remember, in an emergency situation, you may not want to start the conversation by saying, I think you need to see a psychiatrist.

Legal Duties, Trespass, And Enforcement

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

I think you say this once you know stuff has simmered down and it's calmer, then you can say, look, you you seem really stressed out. Um there's someone who I know who maybe would be a good thing for you to talk to. That is, you know, take it feels a whole lot nicer than in the middle of an argument. Look, I mean, you should just talk to someone because you're you know, you're clearly not okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

Um so just want to throw that out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

And for those of us who are in um 55 plus communities, you do a lot of uh senior work. You specialize in um working with seniors and as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

Uh I'm a geriatric psychiatrist by specialty. So I mean 90% of my patients are like senior community patients.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

Okay, so um, so memory challenges, things like that, serial. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Um, well, guys, thank you so much. Um, if we can help in any way, um, I I think you should never feel scared or worried about doing your job. Um, and if your lawyer can partner with you to help you feel better if something is challenging, I think this is where your lawyer really can shine. And certainly we're happy to help in any way if you ever, if you ever need it, please feel free to reach out. Um, we serve all of Florida. Um, we're located in South Florida, but we are able to link up and work with everybody throughout the state. Um, and we've taken on some really, really tough situations. Um, we've never lost a case. But we also go into mediation really early. We do everything we can to resolve things as quickly and as cost-effectively as possible. So if we could help in any way, please feel free to reach out. We're here for you. Um, and we will see you guys on our next mental health and law podcast, the first Thursday of December. Um, but look out for that email that will have all the prior ones. Um, Dr. Secrets, any last words?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:57

No, I just want to thank everyone for sharing some of their time with us. And remember, stress management. That's the number one key. So you're not the one um perpetrating you know aggression on anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

Good. Deep breath, everybody, deep breath.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

Good. Everyone have a good day. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:15

Bye bye.